Jake Heggie
Jake Heggie
SESSION #5: Dead Man Walking
FEATURING: Jake Heggie, Composer
Interview conducted by: Jeffery McMillan, Public Relations Director, on 07/16/2025
(transcript read time ~ 22 minutes)
JEFF MCMILLAN [JM]: We’ll kind of backtrack a little bit. One of the fun interviews that we did was with Elena Park, and just wonder if we can start with your coming to San Francisco Opera. Elena told us she kind of stole you from Cal Performances.
JAKE HEGGIE [JH]: Well, I had been in LA, and I had been working and dreaming of being, you know, a full-time composer and pianist, and I developed a focal dystonia in my right hand, which prevented me from continuing to play the piano. And I found a teacher who could help me build a new technique so I could play again, but she said, “It’ll take about five years,” and I was 28, and so I thought, well, I need to make a living somehow. And I had become the page turner for a lot of concerts at Royce Hall at UCLA, so I turned pages for Leontyne Price, and for Renata Scotto, and for Kiri Te Kanawa, and, like, really amazing performers, and learning a lot about being on the stage, and how opera singers are on the stage, which is key to where my career was going to go, even though I didn’t realize it at the time. And I learned so much from being onstage as the page turner with those people.
And I wound up with a job at the UCLA Center for the Performing Arts, in PR and marketing, because I found I could write about music very, very well. And I eventually needed to get out of LA. I had way too many ghosts. It just was very hard, not being a pianist, and being an injured musician, and it was very, very heavy, so I needed to get out, and I had always wanted to live in San Francisco. And I met a friend who was just buying a house but still had a lease on his apartment. He said, “Well, why don’t you take over my apartment? It’s $300 a month.” And I was like –
JM: [00:03:00] Whoa.
JH: [00:03:00] Yes, (laughter) on the corner of California and Filmore.
JM: [00:03:03] Oh! (laughter)
JH: [00:03:09] Yeah, even then it was insane, so... And he really wasn’t supposed to sublet it to me, but, you know, he said, “Let’s... You know, I still have, like, seven years on this lease,” so... He had a really long lease. And, anyway, so I took over that apartment, and I got a job at Cal Performances, working over there, doing PR and marketing, working with Robert Cole, and Shawn [Fraser] and Anita [Amirrezvani]. We were this amazing team. And it was just like breathing fresh air. I felt so free, and so much happier up here. And I was still working on my hand. I still couldn’t really compose because I had this mental block about it, and my hand was not fully recovered.
I started work at Cal Performances in November of ’93. I had moved up here in, like, October, and then I met Elena in December at a holiday champagne tasting party that Shawn threw, and we just hit it off really, really well. And then she asked... They had a job opening at the San Francisco Opera, and I was like, I really want to apply for that. (laughter) And so she asked Shawn, you know, “Is it okay if I poach Jake?” And he said, “Look, I’m not going to hold Jake back.”
And so out of 300 applicants, I got the job, and I met Lotfi [Mansouri, General Director, 1988-2001]. I met Kori [Lockhart, Public Relations]. I met all the people I’d be working with. And I loved the atmosphere of the place, and I saw the office where I would be, which was at the top of the Opera House, on the front balcony, and it was just... You know, I could cry right now. I was so happy. I felt so identified, and like this is where I belong. This was the doorway into where I belong. And I don’t know what my life is going to be like from this point on, but coming to work there every day, being immersed in music and drama, working with these people who are devoted to getting this out into the community and creating this magical artform...
I didn’t really have deep experience with opera before that. I had learned to love it from going to the opera in LA for many years prior to moving here, but I did not have great experience. I had a lot of experience with singers, but not with the operatic artform. And so it was total immersion, and I had to start writing releases and stories and doing interviews, like, right away. And I met Sarah Billinghurst [Artistic Administrator]. It was her last season with the Opera, before she went to the Met [Metropolitan Opera, NYC]. But it really was a crash course, and I just was so excited about it.
And then I started coming to rehearsals, and hearing these singers and these voices, and I couldn’t believe it. And I was getting to know these people personally by taking them on interviews, just like Flicka [Frederica von Stade]. And I just was inspired to write again. And by then it had been five years. My hand was back. I could play the piano again. And so I started writing songs, and I got the nerve to give one to Flicka. But that was all because of Elena Park and that champagne party. (laughter) Isn’t that amazing?
JM: That is amazing.
JH: It is totally amazing. The whole story is, like, so full of these miraculous doorways and personalities and chance meetings.
JM: Falling into place.
JH: It doesn’t make any sense. If you think that I started April 6th, 1994 was my first day working at the Opera; six years later, October 7, 2000, is the opening of my first opera. Six years! That’s crazy! (laughter)
JM: Indeed, and wonderful.
JH: Yeah. I mean, and I don’t think it could’ve happened anywhere else but here. Truly. That would not happen in New York. That would not happen pretty much anywhere else. But it was because Lotfi... I mean, and I have to give all the credit to him. Yeah, there were people who believed in me, but Lotfi was willing to take chances. He was an impresario, true impresario. He had vision, he had passion, and he had imagination about what could happen, and he was willing to take big chances, and he could get people to follow him. I mean, people might question it, he was difficult to work with, but you could never deny the passion and the persuasion that he had to get you to come onboard, you know? And I just admired him so much. Anyway, it was just magic.
JM: Well, I was going to ask you: talk to me about Lotfi Mansouri, the impresario, but you just did that. That was beautiful. Thank you.
JH: Yeah. But I can say he was the impresario, always spotting young singers, talent, ready to find it wherever it was, you know. Gave American debuts for, you know... All these great singers from Europe had their American debuts here, and, I mean, we were doing ten operas in the fall. It was insane, (laughter) but it was fun. There was never a dull moment. I mean, you were go, go, go, go, go. Thank God I was young. (laughter) But it was always some exciting debut, some work that hadn’t been done, some new vision of a work. You know, he wanted to keep the whole repertoire very fresh and exciting, and there was always some new perspective he was going to bring to it.
So, I mean, I think he was a real inspiration in all of this, as well, watching him work, how he worked with other people, how he would talk to his board, to the donors, you know, because I would write speeches for him, and also letters, and articles, and annual reports. I was involved with all of it. It was the greatest apprenticeship for an aspiring opera composer you could imagine, but I didn’t know I was an aspiring opera composer. I just thought it was my job. So all of a sudden my job became learning about all of that, being connected with Lotfi, doing all this work, and, on nights and on weekends, writing songs for singers. I loved my life. (laughs) I had no aspiration beyond that. I thought, this is as great as it’s going to get.
Like, when I wrote those folk songs for Flicka, and I gave them to her during Dangerous Liaisons, and there was this slight look of terror... (laughter) I could see her thinking, oh, the PR guy writes songs. Yay. But then I came back after, and she was playing through them, and she said, “These are so beautiful. Let’s read through them before the next show.” And, literally, we’re in the chorus room before her next performance, I’m playing, she’s leaning over, singing and reading the score, and I’m like, it’s never going to get better than this; this is as good as it gets. And then she said, “These are so beautiful. Would you like to give a concert together sometime?” And I was like, yes. That was my reaction. (laughter) And I thought, yeah, I think... Yeah, that would be great. Sure. I think I can find time. And literally... And then she started telling all the other people about it, and all of a sudden they were coming to the office, not about a bio or an article, but if I had a song. Bizarre.
JM: Amazing. And then, from there to being asked to write an opera?
JH: Lotfi was watching all of this, and he was hearing about it from –
JM: He was aware.
JH: -- Renée [Flemming], from Bryn [Terfel], from Sylvia [McNair], from Flicka, from all of these people, and Patrick Summers, I have to say, was a huge champion very early on. I met him in the summer of ’94, during Merola, and got to know him. We became instant friends. And he heard a tape of one of my previous compositions. He goes, “Jake, you’re like a real composer.” (laughter) I was like, “Well, I thought I was, but this is what I do now.” And so apparently Lotfi said, “I want to do something for the Millennium. I want it to be very bubbly and frothy and fun, and I want to discover a new composer.” And Patrick was one of the people who said, “Well, he's right in your PR office.”
And I won a competition through G. Schirmer, and I remember there was a party one night, and Lotfi said to me, “So, Jake, you’re writing all these songs for all these singers. They’re taking them all over the world and performing them, and they seem to love them. Have you ever thought about writing an opera?” And I kind of looked at him, and I thought... I said, “No, not really, (laughter) but tell me something.” I said, “Really, I haven’t, because it’s so overwhelming and massive.” And he says, “Well.” He says, “I think you’re a theater composer. I think we should talk.” And so I was like, “Okay.” And it was at a party, and I remember Kate Gaitley, who used to work here, was next to me, and she was, like, nudging me, and like, “Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.” She was there at the beginning when this conversation happened.
And the next day, I’m at work, and thinking, you know, he was just making party conversation, and my phone rings, and it’s his assistant, Winnifred [Arbeiter], and she says, “Lotfi would like to see you in his office. Do you have time right now?” And I said, “Sure.” So I go over with my pad, ready to write the next release, whatever. And he says, “Put the pad down. Let’s talk about your opera.” He goes, “So we have a slot in the 2000 season on the mainstage. I want to send you to New York. I’ve been trying to get Terrence McNally to agree to write a libretto, and I want to send you to New York and see if you guys hit it off, and if you’d be a good pair.”
And I was sitting there going, what? (laughs) I’m looking around, like, who are you talking to? (laughter) You know I’m your PR guy, right? And it was literally... He opened this door, and I thought, what have I got to lose? I am jumping through that door.
And I’m sure you’ve heard from other people, it was just this crazy, magical time, when this transformative thing was happening, and it was all because of Lotfi, and his vision, and his idea that, first of all, we needed more new operas; we needed them to be vital and exciting; we needed to find new voices where they might not have been heard. And so I went to New York and met Terrence McNally, and that was all because of Lotfi.
JM: Now, when we talked to Kip [Cranna, Music Administrator], he talked about there was this idea of a French farce. (laughter
JH: That’s right.
JM: Lotfi was thinking along those lines, and then you come back with, after you met with Terrence…
JH: Well, no, it was a while between those things, because, I mean, I was in no position to disagree with the French farce. I mean, I was his employee. He was giving me this opportunity. I went and talked with Terrence McNally, who was in the middle of creating Ragtime at that time, and he was moving apartments, and we got along very, very well, and Renée was going to be singing a song that I wrote for her at Lincoln Center, at Tully Hall, with Julie Harris. They were doing an Emily Dickinson thing. And so that’s why I was there, and he knew about Renée, and, you know, he liked all the people that I worked with, he liked my music, he liked me, but he had no interest in a French farce or a comedy, nothing frothy or bubbly. He was horrified that a young American composer would suggest such a thing. And I said, “Well, (laughter) not really my choice, actually.” And so he said, “But let’s keep talking, because I do want to do something like this someday, but I’m way too busy right now.”
So we were talking, and Lotfi was really pushing for this bubbly, frothy idea, and Terrence was not interested, so I thought the whole thing was going to fall apart. And by this point, we were out of the Opera House for a season so there was a lot of work to do. And we were in temporary offices while the Opera House was being renovated. We were at the Orpheum [Theatre]. We were at Civic Auditorium. We were at the Golden Gate Theatre. It was a lot of work. And I was still writing a lot of music, and working with Flicka, and I just remember Terrence basically saying, “I don’t think this is going to happen.” And in November/December of ’96, I wrote a new set of songs for Flicka, for the New Century Chamber Orchestra. It was called On the Road to Christmas. And it went very well, and so I had a cassette recording, and I sent it to Terrence with a final plea, and didn’t hear back from him. I thought, well, it’s over.
And so Lotfi was trying to find other famous writers who might... We talked to Armistead Maupin, who had no interest in doing an opera. And he said, “Well, you know, Jake, I really need some heavy hitter to really make this work.” And so it seemed like it was going to go away. It was very depressing. (laughs) And then, in January, I get an email from Terrence saying, “Please call me. I want to talk about our opera.” And I’m like, what? (laughter) And, by coincidence, he had gone to see a concert of American music at Carnegie Hall that featured Renée Fleming, and André Previn conducting, and it was Knoxville, the Barber piece, and some other American stuff. And Terrence got all excited about American music, and a great American singer doing it, and he was backstage afterwards, and Matthew Epstein, Renée’s manager, walked over to him and said, “Terrence, you need to write a libretto, and there’s only one composer you should be working with, and that’s Jake.” I didn’t pay him to say that. (laughter) Literally, it shocked me. I didn’t know Matthew knew my music that well. But that’s how the word was good, you know, among all the singers. And Renée heard them talking and came over and said, “Yes, you need to do an opera with Jake.” And then he went home, and my package, which I had sent in December, had just arrived, because he had moved, so it had gotten lost in transit. It had just arrived. So my package with the tape and my new things... He said, “It was just serendipity. It all happened at the same time.” And then he wrote me the next day, and we talked, and he says, “I’m in. We just have to find the right story.”
And so a few months later, Ragtime was on the road, and he said, “Let’s meet,” and it was June of ’97. We met at a little outdoor café. And he said, “Well, I’ve written a list of ten ideas that I think would be good for operas, but I only really want to do one of them, and I’m not going to tell you which one, (laughter) because we both have to feel the same passion about the idea.” And I said, “Okay, I didn’t realize there was a test, (laughter) but all right.” So the first thing he says is Dead Man Walking, and I just went... I mean, I felt every hair stand on end, and I thought, it’s perfect. It’s big emotion that would fill an opera house. There are solos, duets, choruses. There’s big drama. It’s resonant. Everyone knows that title right now, because it was ’97; it had come out in ’96. And it was being talked about, and written about. I just thought it was a brilliant idea. I said, “You could stop right there. That’s the idea.” And he says, “Well, let me read all the other ideas.” And I remember two of the other ideas on the list, but most, I don’t remember them, because my brain was already going full speed ahead on Dead Man Walking. The other ideas were Sunset Boulevard, (laughter) as an opera rather than a musical, which it was, and Moby-Dick, which eventually did happen. But at that moment, it was Dead Man Walking, and I said, “Well, it’s got to be Dead Man Walking.” He goes, “Yes, that’s the one I want to do, too.” And so that’s when we went in to talk to Lotfi. (laughs)
So we were still in temporary offices, outside of the Opera House, and Lotfi is so excited that we have an idea. We’re sitting... (laughter) And I still work for the man, remember. And I’m looking at Terrence. I said, “You tell him.” And Terrence said, “Well, we think Dead Man Walking would be a great opera.” And I remember Lotfi going... (gasps) Like, processing, and thinking, I never would have thought of that, but what a brilliant idea. Let’s go for it. And immediately, (snaps) he recognized the power that I had felt when it was suggested, because it was so present and in the moment; and yet timeless, very American, but universal in the themes; the kind of thing you hunger for when you’re thinking of a big opera project, and is so hard to identify.
So then Lotfi was all in, and then they made communication with Sister Helen, and my phone rang one day, and I pick it up, and she goes, “Uh, this is Sister Helen Prejean. I’d like to speak to Jake Heggie.” And I said, “This is Jake.” (laughter) She goes, “Jake, I understand you want to make an opera out of Dead Man Walking. You know what I said to that, Jake?” And I said, “No...” And she goes, “I said of course we’re gonna make an opera out of Dead Man Walking! (laughter) But, Jake, I don’t know boo-scat about opera, so you’re gonna have to educate me, but I’ve been talkin’ to some friends. First of all, you don’t write this atonal stuff, do you? I mean, we gonna have a tune we can hum, right?” And I said, “Yes, I write very lyrical music, and I like big emotion, and big, long lines, and memorable music.” And she says, “Good.” She goes, “Now, Jake, I know you’re gonna have to change things. You’re gonna have to rewrite. You’re gonna have to add things, take away. You know, it’s for the stage. It’s not the book.” She goes, “The only thing I ask is that it stay a story of redemption.” And I said, “Absolutely, a hundred percent.” And then we were off and running.
But it was that sequence of events. And I really thought for a long time it was just not going to happen, and it all hinged on that event with Terrence, and, again, another magical coincidence. The whole creation of the piece is this series of magical doors and coincidences. Like, again, is someone facilitating this? (laughter)
JM: Sort of pulling the strings.
JH: Yeah, exactly. Sorry for the long answers, but, you know...
JM: No, no, that’s wonderful. Thank you.
JH: The whole story is so present in my head still.
JM: It must be right now, too.
Let’s get to that. First, I wanted to ask, because Kip told this great story about Dangerous Liaisons. So you would’ve been in the Press Department as this thing was trying to get to the finish line, and they were still composing, and they got another orchestrator to try to get it to opening night.
JH: Oh, yes. (laughs)
JM: So as you’re working on your first opera, were you thinking about deadlines? Were you thinking about the machinery of the opera (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
JH: Well, I had learned a lot of lessons from that experience, because I saw what hell, you know, Conrad [Susa] put everyone through, because he was so late with everything, and then changing things right at the last minute. I understood it, because when you hear things for the first time onstage it changes everything, but that’s why you have to be really prepared in advance.
But I also knew this was my big chance, and they created a composer-in-residence program for me so that I could work two years, and my job was to write this opera, so I wouldn’t have to juggle teaching or some other job. And frankly, the way that all came about was because of that concert in Indonesia that Flicka talked about, where she was doing all these recitals that were sponsored by Chase Bank. And so she invited me to go with her to do the one in Indonesia. We were flying all the way to Indonesia to do 30 minutes of music, and (laughter) I thought, I’m in. I’m in. I can do that. And Chase Bank underwrote it, and I met all the people involved, and I told them about this possibility, because that concert happened in ’97.
And they said, “You know, if you’re going to do a residency, we should underwrite the commission and the residency.” And I said, “Yeah, that’s a great idea.” And the man who facilitated that was Bill Criss, who is Darren Criss’s father -- Darren Criss, the famous actor on Broadway who just won a Tony Award, who was maybe ten years old at that time. So I met Darren Criss when he was ten. And Bill Criss, he loved music. He loved possibility. He saw all these things. And he was also very smart about getting Chase Bank involved, so that the name was there, because that was his job. They did freak out when they found out what the subject was, (laughter) but they said, “You know, we’re underwriting the residency and part of the commission, in order to make this project possible. The choice of the material is up to the artists.” So that’s how they dealt with it.
But anyway, so I was given this two years, on salary, with benefits, in my home city, and able to workshop things with Adler Fellows. So I felt protected, and safe, and I was working with Terrence McNally, who was on fire with it, and I was on fire with it. So he wrote the first act libretto. We did the press conference to announce the piece in, like, February or March, early March, of ’98, and then we went directly down to Terrence’s house in Key West, because he wanted me with him when he wrote the first act libretto. We already knew that she needed some kind of a hymn or something, and so I was still rewriting, sketching ideas, even though I didn’t have a libretto yet, and the “He Will Gather Us Around” tune, and a lot of the words, came to me when we were getting into the cab to go to the airport for Key West. I remember it just hit me, like (claps) someone slapped me on the face, like, all of a sudden this tune and these words. And I remember stopping as I was getting in the cab, and he looked at me. He said, “You all right? You gonna get in the cab?” And I was like, “I think I’m really good.” (laughter) And I started singing the tune to him, and he was all in.
So it was just real fire and creativity. We had the first act done by November of that year, and then we did the second act, and then we had a workshop in August of ’99, and we needed to make some changes, and then I had to orchestrate. So it happened boom, boom, boom, but I knew I needed to be timely with these deadlines, because they were very clear. They were nervous that I was a first-time composer for an opera, and that I would be late, and that I would put them through hell. And I was like, no, that’s not my goal. I know all you people. I work with you, you know. But there was such a feeling of support through the whole thing. It was remarkable, I mean, life changing, to feel that love and support from all those singers, from all my colleagues who were marveling that this thing was happening. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. I was watching this interview with Joyce DiDonato, talking about “He Will Gather Us Around,” and she said something that somebody else that we talked to said: it just sounds like it’s a spiritual from a hundred years ago, or more.
JH: That was the idea: to try to capture, again, something timeless.
JM: And it just hit you.
JH: Yeah, it hit me, and I was checking it with all my friends and going, “I’m going to sing something for you. You tell me if I stole this, okay? (laughter) Or did I write this?” And they said, “Yeah, it sounds familiar, like it comes from that tradition, but I don’t know another piece like that.” So, yeah, I was just... It just happened.
JM: I wonder if you could say a little bit, also, about the songs that we hear on the radio at the beginning, because that is also... They sound like ’80s pop songs, but you had to write them.
JH: I did.
JM: Was there an idea of licensing music commercially?
JH: No, no, I knew I wanted to write it, and Terrence gave me the greatest gift in that prologue, which was... I mean, and, I have to say, all hail Terrence McNally. That libretto is a work of genius. I don’t even think I realized at the time, because it was my first time, but 25 years later, after many librettos, and listening to other librettos by other librettists, it is a work of genius, and it is singularly remarkable in what it accomplishes and how it sets it out. And so being a theater guy, he wanted to establish everything in theater terms, to make sure we’re not trying to put the book on the stage; we’re not trying to put the movie on the stage; this is for the opera house.
And so that’s why he wanted to stage the crime, so that we see who did it, we see what he did, we know who’s guilty. So that’s not the purpose of the opera, to prove that he’s not guilty, or that maybe he did it, maybe he didn’t. No, we have total clarity, which is very different from the movie, you know, which is very different from the journey that Sister Helen was on. She didn’t know. We see it, as the audience. We are witnesses. And that’s what Terrence wanted to set up, but as part of that he set up a whole sort of play, wordless play, and it says where we are, and it says this music comes over the radio, and then the kid changes the station and it’s this more romantic music. And then when we see someone light a match, and then suddenly they ask, “Did you hear something?”, and the radio gets turned off, and then the crime happens.
So he set up all this stuff wordlessly, to inspire music, to outline this whole opening prologue, the murder, just on musical and theatrical terms, without any words. What a gift for an American composer that grew up with this kind of music. He knew I grew up with all the pop music, and I loved rock bands, and Streisand, and, Carly Simon, and Linda Ronstadt, and all that stuff, and I could pull from my experience in the ’70s and ’80s, loving that kind of music, as well as different other styles that would necessarily come into this very American story, that requires a kind of American vernacular, but needs to also sound fresh. So, yeah, I wrote the songs based on how I envisioned the action unfolding on that stage, and it wound up that the tunes that I used wound up influencing the tunes for the music in the opera itself.
You hear the radio, first the rock and roll thing. You hear it when Joseph is confessing to Sister Helen at the end. It’s the rhythm and the tune of that, to recall that moment and what he was feeling. The saxophone piece that happens actually is related to the “You don’t know” ensemble, with all the parents, “You don’t know what it’s like.” That tune is connected to... So it all started getting intertwined, which I love, because I love motifs, and I love big themes that you can recognize. But what a gift. And so I talked to Kip about we needed... I didn’t know how to arrange these kind of things. We needed a recording session. Because we couldn’t do it live. They didn’t have, in the orchestra or anything, people who could do this. So we had to record it, prerecord it. And so we found an arranger, based on my relationship with Dave Koz, the saxophonist, who had a big career going. And he agreed to do the saxophone thing. And then this arranger, Brian Culbertson, also produced and put together this whole band, and I went to LA, and we did the recording sessions, and we licensed it so that it could be used in perpetuity for all the productions. And that’s how that came together.
You know, it was, I think, another sidebar I wasn’t expecting, and another lesson I wasn’t expecting to learn. (laughter) But it also -- it allows the audience into the opera with music that feels familiar to them, so they already know this isn’t one of those acerbic pieces that’s going to keep me at arm’s length, you know? So that they can immediately connect to the drama, to the storytelling, to the way we’re going to tell the story, the musical terms of the story. And it was just, again, genius on Terrence’s part, and it allowed me to use all the different kinds of American music influence that I have in my wheelhouse.
JM: Let’s stay with connection, and go to opening night, because I’ve always loved how you say having a world premiere is like shooting your opera out of a cannon. (laughs)
JH: At the audience, yeah.
JM: So now you have this audience in the room, the missing ingredient.
JH: Yeah. The audience is the last character to show up, and you don’t know what you have until then. We’d done a dress rehearsal that went really, really well, and we had done a workshop the year before that went very, very well, and we made changes after that, but you just don’t know until it’s completely on its feet, it’s staged, it’s costumed, the orchestra is there, and it’s opening night, and there’s people there, with all kinds of differing opinions about whether they think it’s actually going to work or not, but there was great curiosity and energy about it. And I knew that it was very powerful, and that it was very effective. I had no idea what the real response would be, because, of course, I was unproven as an opera composer. There was a lot of controversy about that, too, that I had been given this opportunity, which is, sidebar, I think why a lot of critical press were very, very hard on that piece when it first opened: because they had known me as the PR guy, and suddenly I’m writing an opera? You know, that’s a big shift for a lot of those people to make, so a lot of them had already made up their mind that they didn’t like it (laughs) before they heard a note. You know, I know that never happens otherwise. (laughter)
JM: Of course not.
JH: But there was great energy in the Opera House. And I already knew that there were going to be subsequent productions, because I had taken the workshop tape to Orange County. Mitch Krieger, who was running that company down there -- it was in Costa Mesa. What was the name of the company? It folded. But anyway, they... I can’t even remember. That’s terrible. Anyway, John DeMain was there, and I played him the workshop tape, and they were both thrilled, and they said, “We really want to do this, and we’re going to find a consortium of companies to take this to the next level.” And so that was already in the works.
The premiere happened, though, and it was just... I mean, that night was extraordinary. I mean, Sister Helen, I believe, was the one who came up to me and said, “Jake, this is a big night. Your job tonight is just to stay present in the moment. Don’t think about what led up. Don’t think about what’s gonna happen next. Stay in the moment.” And I did. And so I remember it all so clearly. And it was just... Yeah, everyone performed so well. The production worked so smoothly. Joe’s direction was great. Michael Yeargan’s set was so remarkable. I don’t think people knew what to expect, but what happened to them was an emotional, human journey, that didn’t preach at them, didn’t tell them how they should feel, just let them feel, because there were real human beings on the stage, going through something unimaginable, and yet happens all the time, and you could totally imagine it happening to you. And so, by the end, when there’s that silence of the execution, and the pause after, and then Sister Helen steps forward and sings a capella the tune that she sang at the beginning, the hymn, you could feel in the house... It was an active, fraught silence.
Like, people in rehearsal were worried, what if someone starts coughing, or what if someone says, “Eh, bleh,” you know. I was like, I don’t think it’s going to happen, because it was so powerful and fraught, and the pacing and the timing. Again, the genius of the libretto, the production, the performers, also the way it inspired the score to give us music, music, music, and then suddenly no music. What could be more powerful than an activated stillness and silence? But it went on so long, and just... I was a wreck, because I really did think someone was going to say something, or... (laughs) And then when those lights went off, that place just exploded, and I knew it was really special. I had no idea that it was going to have the resonance that it has had. There’s no way I could’ve known. But then, right after that, people from Orange County were there. They put together a consortium. They had to do a new production because the original required so much wing space, and most of these theaters couldn’t do that. So then they created the Leonard Foglia production.
That was the second production, and it opened in 2002. And it started going all over the country, and then it wound up going all over the world, and now it’s here, 25 years later. But it was that consortium of -- I think it was six or seven companies. I mean, it was sort of unheard of. And that’s when I thought, wow, we’re really on to something. Something really resonated. And Sister Helen was so happy, and so grateful, because, she said, “Tonight, 3,000 people witnessed an execution; because this thing that happens in the middle of the night, that they try to keep secret and out of everyone’s eyes... And you saw a human being. You didn’t see an archetype; you saw a human being be executed, one that said, ‘I love you,’ and those were his last words.”
And, like I said, I think people were expecting that it was going to be some kind of polemic, and they were going to be preached out, and it wasn’t. It was just a big human drama, where it’s not about the death penalty. The death penalty raises the stakes to life and death at every turn, but it is not an argument about the death penalty. So, anyway, that’s a little bit about it. I mean, on sidebar, Julie Andrews was there. (laughter) So were Susan Sarandon, Shawn Penn, you know, Tim Robbins, Robin Williams, Woody Harrelson. I mean, it was crazy. (laughs) It’s like, what is happening? And Sister Helen had brought all those people in. You know, they all wanted to be there to support her. And Julie Andrews and Gary Marshall, the director, were there, because they were in town making Princess Diaries, and Terrence was very close with them, so they came. And Julie loves opera, so she came. But it was just a magical night. Again, another miracle. Who could’ve imagined?
JM: Yeah. Well, 25 years later, from that night, the Lenny Foglia production is coming. Dead Man Walking is coming back to where it all began. How are you feeling right now?
JH: It’s a little surreal, you know, to think that –
JM: You’ve watched a lot of these productions over the years.
JH: And in Europe, and in places that are abolitionist countries, don’t have the death penalty. It’s not even in the conversation. It just doesn’t exist. And to see it have that kind of power in these countries... Small German houses do it all the time. All the time! It seems like all these small German houses... Like, Flicka was talking about... What surprised me about it was because the first production was so grand, and we conceived it as a grand opera -- big cast, big chorus, women’s chorus, men’s chorus, children’s chorus, supers -- you know, it requires a lot of forces, and then all of a sudden it was in 2007 was the first university production, at CU Boulder, and I thought, this could be a disaster, because these are really hard roles, and it’s a really big piece. And I went, and I couldn’t believe it: it worked like a dream. They made it work on a smaller scale, with students, and that opened up a whole new window of possibility for the piece. And it started getting done by conservatories, by nonprofessional companies, by universities. And then it started getting done on stages large and small. I had no idea it could be that flexible, because we had conceived it so big.
So to have been to all these different productions all over the world, in these different size houses, from jewel box European houses to the Met, you know, massive house, and to see it have that power every single time, is a testament to the story, the universality of that story, the brilliance of Terrence’s libretto, and how I seemed to get it right on my first try, (laughter) you know, as an opera composer. I don’t know what else to tell you. It’s a really fabulous, amazing, human drama; very American, but universal; very specific and timely, but timeless. People have always been arguing about this. Who gets to decide who lives and dies? Is repeating the behavior of the criminal to prove that it’s wrong -- does that make any sense? Killing in order to prove that killing is wrong, does that send a mixed message, you know? Does it really solve anything? Yeah, if someone did that to my family member, I might want them to die, too, but does it give closure? Does it solve anything? Does another person’s life being taken solve anything? These are all big questions that are posed by that opera, and it doesn’t give you the answer. You have to find the answer yourself.
And one of the things that I thought was brilliant, also, about the choice of the story, the libretto, the way it happens, is it reinforces this idea that when you go to the opera house, it is a community experience. You don’t know who the people around you are, how they voted, what their values are, how they feel about this or that. And yet, in that moment, you are connected by a big, human drama, that opens channels for dialogue like no other artform can do. And to have gone through that together, you are now connected as part of that community. And I’ve seen people go more firmly into their conviction that the death penalty is the right thing. I’ve seen people completely go the other side: “You know, I used to believe in the death penalty; I see that it just doesn’t solve anything.” Those kinds of conversations are really fascinating, and they could be very tense, but they’re important to have. And it’s one of the things that piece does, and it doesn’t matter where it’s done; those conversations happen. Like, in Canada, in Europe, in Australia... It’s been amazing to see.
And like I said, so I had no idea that it would have that kind of emotional and social relevance and resonance through the years, but also that it could be done so many different ways, and with so many different kinds of singers. I’ll never forget, of course, watching Joyce DiDonato do it for the first time at City Opera, and seeing what a powerful actress emerged in that moment. I knew what a great singer she was, but such a powerful actor, who inspired all her colleagues. And I learned something about the piece from her. I’ve learned so much from seeing different people do those roles through the years. So it’s always -- it’s fascinating. So I’m excited to keep learning, and to keep sharing it with audiences, and hopefully continue that dialogue, because we need it more than ever.
JM: That’s beautiful, thank you.
JH: Yeah. (laughs)
JM: Just before we wrap up, I’d like to wonder if you could say something about Susan Graham going from Sister Helen to Mrs. De Rocher, and seeing new singers take on the roles, and learning from that, and just seeing what can happen. What about the succession of these artists?
JH: Again, it’s something that I couldn’t have imagined, because I could never imagine the piece would last that long. (laughter) You know, when Dead Man Walking opened, it was maybe one of two or three new operas at opera companies that year. Now there are just dozens and dozens, all shapes and sizes, you know? I don’t know if it was part of the portal that changed things, when companies realized they could do something like this, and it would draw audiences in -- because we had to add a performance to the original run, you know -- and that it has that resonance, and so they were looking for their own way to do that. And singers who maybe didn’t... This was one of the problems early on was that you can’t do opera without great singers, and there were a lot of great singers who were not interested in doing opera because it was, for a long time, very academically written, and not very vocal-friendly. And I and my contemporaries, we like to write real vocal music that lets the voice do what it does really, really well. And so to see this succession of singers -- because I’ve seen a few go from singing Sister Helen into Mrs. De Rocher; I’ve seen some from being Joe into being Owen Hart, one of the fathers; I’ve seen this change, and it’s really... It’s wonderful. It’s very inspiring.
And when Susie did it for the first time was Washington, DC, the Kennedy Center, in 2017, and it was hard for her at first. It was a big challenge, because she knew Sister Helen so well, and suddenly to go to Mrs. De Rocher, and a totally different sort of energy and history that you’re bringing to that role, but she’s an inspiring, brilliant artist, and so to watch her bring what she learned from playing Sister Helen into being Mrs. De Rocher is a wonderful, wonderful transformation.
And, like I said, I’ve seen a few people change roles, and it’s always interesting, the discussion that they have about how it feels to do that role versus someone else on the stage. But very, very moving, to see it shift and change. I hope one day Joyce will sing Mrs. De Rocher. And Jamie Barton, who is singing Sister Helen here, I hope one day she will. I hope someone eventually asks Sasha Cooke to sing Sister Helen. It’s, like, the most natural thing, and she hasn’t been asked yet, but she will be an amazing Sister Helen, you know? This is one thing that people said when they saw the opera: you can imagine all these different singers doing these roles.
Which was another, again, a tribute to Terrence’s concept of the libretto, and creating these roles, and the way that I composed the music. But it’s a little bit like if you look at classic operas, like one of my favorites is Traviata. You know the music, you know the words, you know the action, you know everything, but when an exciting new Violetta comes along you feel like you’re seeing it for the first time, and you’re learning something. That is the gift of Dead Man Walking, and the operas that I’ve written since. I feel like suddenly a new star steps into these roles, or someone moves into a new role, and I hear the role for the first time, like I’d never heard it before. And I learn something from my own work, which is immensely gratifying. (laughs)
JM: Last question. I don’t know if this could be part of the thing but just thinking about Dead Man Walking being a piece -- you said it’s like very few new operas at that time. It’s also an opera about a living person, who was there on opening night. I mean, this seems to be the kind of thing that we see a lot of in opera now: opera about living people. There’s a Dolores Huerta opera coming out.
JH: But there was Nixon in China, and there was... You know, John [Adams] liked to look at living protagonists and things like that, so it wasn’t completely unknown, but I think it was probably the first time that the living protagonist was a champion for the opera, (laughter) you know? And would show up and would help promote it, you know?
And would show up for interviews to talk about her journey that inspired it. And that, I think, was a first. But yeah, to have a living protagonist portrayed on the stage is really fascinating, and that she put her trust and faith in us to do a good job was also very moving, and that she’s still such a champion, at 86 years old, you know, and she’s going to be here.
JM: She’ll be here soon.
JH: She’ll be here to help promote it, and for opening. It’s really remarkable.
JM: And Flicka said she’s like having an atom bomb in your pocket. (laughter) I thought that was good.
JH: Yeah, I mean, she is a force of nature and she is still so passionate and on fire with this, and this burning fire of truth within the center of her, and the need... You know, she recognized a call, and she answered, and she’s been following that ever since. And it’s all about connecting people, and getting them into dialogue with each other, because that’s where we learn, that’s where we grow, and that’s where people can suddenly gain perspective from what someone else is going through, instead of just sitting back in judgment. Yeah. And that’s the magic of the art. She actually said she likes the opera the best of all the incarnations of Dead Man Walking, because you have the fullness of drama, the fullness of music, the fullness of theater, and these individual people going through it, in real time, and the emotion of it is so large that it doesn’t matter whether it’s a small house or a large house: you get sucked into the drama, and what these people are going through. Yeah. No, she’s amazing.
JM: Well, Jake, thank you so much. It was brilliant. Thank you.
JH: Not at all.
JM: What a privilege, to hear this journey that you’ve been on, and you’re on.
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To see Mr. Heggie’s full performance history at San Francisco Opera: https://archive.sfopera.com/jake-heggie