Frederica von Stade
Frederica von Stade, w/ Jake Heggie
SESSION #5: Dead Man Walking
FEATURING: Frederica von Stade, role Mrs. Patrick de Rocher, Joseph’s mother, w/ Jake Heggie, composer
Interview conducted by: Jeffery McMillan, Public Relations Director, on 07/16/2025
(transcript read time ~ 9 minutes)
FREDERICA VON STADE [FVS]: Oh, good morning. I’m Frederica von Stade, and I’m delighted to be here in the Archives, because I’m thinking very much about archives these days, (laughter) being archival. And delighted, just thrilled to talk about Dead Man Walking. Always am, always was, always will be.
JAKE HEGGIE [JH]: I’m Jake Heggie. I’m the composer of Dead Man Walking.
JEFF MCMILLAN [JM]: I’m Jeff McMillan, public relations director at SF Opera.
Let’s start with a few questions for you. Thank you, Flicka, for being here. Following your career in San Francisco is a fascinating one to review, because you’ve come as this great Mozart interpreter, Rossini, and the early music, and Strauss, and then Dangerous Liaisons and Dead Man Walking. So can you talk a little bit about how you got to contemporary opera, and singing operas by living composers, from your repertoire? Because it’s so vast.
FVS: I would say it’s just plain, blind luck. I was just lucky, and thrilled to be asked, thrilled to be asked to do Dangerous Liaisons, and over the moon to be asked to do Dead Man Walking. I so believe in the incredible talents we have in this day and age of opera, and opera composers, and Jake loves the human voice, so I knew everything would be great, working with him. And it’s such a fascinating and vitally important subject to explore, and what better way to explore this subject than through music, and through storytelling, so that people come alive and are part of a very important life instance that we all need to know about.
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We went up to the chorus room, and in the chorus room, he [Jake] played me these songs that just took my breath away. The tunes were familiar, but the treatment of the tunes was just everything that I really love in music, a little... You know, brought to mind Debussy, brought to mind Mahler, but uniquely Jake. Wonderful rhythms, wonderful treatments, always centered around, very clearly, a story.
You know, he’s very dedicated to story, to life experience. So I just fell in love with these songs, and I thought, wow, Jake, come on! Let’s do some things together. And then word was slowly getting out about this man, Jake Heggie. It was getting out in our cast. We were doing Dangerous Liaisons at that time, and in the cast was Renée Fleming, and Tom Hampson, and we were all kind of, you know, saying, “Have you heard these songs? I mean, this guy is... I mean, he’s just amazing. I mean, this is fantastic.” So word, you know, that’s how it happens in the business. And then not long thereafter, he wrote an opera, (laughter) which has been one of the most successful modern operas of the last 25 years.
JM: So working with Jake on the songs, and then you hear that he’s commissioned to write this opera. Were you surprised?
FVS: I think there was some time in between them, because we did quite a few concerts together, I mean, as far away as Indonesia, and I remember I had to get back, because it was my daughter’s family day at university, and try to and get home quickly from Indonesia (laughter) to Lewisburg, PA. It was quite a challenge. And we had so much fun doing these recitals. We did quite a few.
And then it came up that he was going to partner with Terrence McNally, and that I think they had another story in mind first, and then it came around to Dead Man Walking. I was very lucky, and Jake asked me to sing Sister Helen at first. And I just felt I was senior enough at that point that there were just too many wonderful younger singers, and I said, “I really, really with all my heart want to be in it -- please let me be in it -- but I just don’t think I’m right for Sister Helen.” And there was marvelous Susie Graham, in her heyday at that point, and Jake asked me to take my choice: one of the parents of the kids that were murdered, or the mother of the convict, and I chose that part, because I had done a lot of work in Oakland with different organizations.
One was helping young families in sort of a daycare, that was based on the Rudolf Steiner method of really going calmly, having kids help cook, everything. So I did their music program for them, and I became very involved with the project. It was called the Sophia Project. And so I really knew quite a few mums who were dealing with extraordinary circumstances, just extraordinary -- not having enough food; not having any place to live -- and I thought, you know, somewhat arrogantly, that I could relate to a woman whose life was just strapped by circumstances that I can’t even imagine, you know, if I hadn’t seen them.
And exploring this woman, through Jake’s eyes, and through Terrence’s eyes, was this amazing gift to me. Just... It made me look at my own motherhood in a whole different way, and realize how much of your child’s life you can’t predict, and you can’t control, the circumstances. And you hate that, and you hate it about yourself, that you can’t make the world pure and good for them. And so I really know that feeling. I know it firsthand, even with my sort of privileged circumstances.
And the two scenes -- there are a few scenes, but the two major scenes -- are so brilliantly written, with such compassion, and yet such truth, such honesty, that you just... They kind of surround you. You know, they sort of play themselves. And that’s been my experience of wonderful music that I’ve been lucky enough to do, is that if you just follow the rules and do what you’re told -- which is hard for me because quarter notes and eighth notes sometimes meld together (laughter) -- but if you just follow the map, it makes itself. It really does. It tells its own story. And to be part of the production, to be part of the beginning of it; to hear Sister Helen sing in the beginning, to know her story, to see the arrogance of Joe, and trying to manipulate his circumstances -- which is what kids do. He was a young, young man, just overcome by life. And so the entire experience of being, especially, part of that production -- it was a very beautiful production, a very unusual production, and it had a marvelous director -- it was such a privilege. Such a privilege. And every time I’ve done it, I’ve been so grateful for the chance to be Mrs. De Rocher again, you know.
JM: That gets to a question I have for you about when you first got the score, and you had been working with Jake on all these recitals. Your interpretation of Mrs. Patrick De Rocher is so unforgettable, and so amazing.
FVS: Thank you.
JM: Did it leap off the page to you? Did you see it right away? Or was it kind of a process to work on this character?
FVS: I didn’t feel it was a... I felt the connection was so clearly stated musically, and dramatically, and with the words, with Terrence’s libretto, that it wasn’t a big leap of faith. It was, just do what’s written there, and you’ve got it. You’ve got it. In the context of being overwhelmed with the situation, which any human would be, but especially this woman, who was, you know, not sophisticated, not brought up to speak in public, not brought up to come against odds, and speak for herself, and stand up for herself, and the trauma, the trauma, you know? I’m going to lose my child. You know, there’s nothing worse in the world.
JM: We’ve been doing several of these interviews about the piece, and the 2000 world premiere, and Kip Cranna’s been conducting a lot of the interviews, and he’s asked everybody: did you have a sense, was this going to be a big success, or a moderate success, or what was your feeling going into it? And I’d love to hear what you think. Just so much anticipation of opening night, and how the people might connect, the audience might connect.
FVS: Well, it was very controversial at the time, and that needs to be said. There were people who were against the idea of portraying this kind of a subject in an opera house. I didn’t have any direct exposure to that. I do remember a marvelous woman whose husband was very for the death penalty, and she was very much against it, and I remember speaking with her at one point. And I’m very much against the death penalty. I just think it’s... To say it’s ridiculous is too lighthearted. It just -- it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Whatsoever. And I’m on Sister Helen’s team in that.
And, of course, in preparation I remember I did read Sister Helen’s book, and knowing Sister Helen, that is an experience in itself. (laughs) That is like holding an atom bomb in your pocket, (laughter) an atom bomb of belief in life, of goodness, of faith, of courage, of... Really. And it permeates every single thing around her. Everything.
And it also... You know, I was deeply influenced by Susie Graham, by Susan Graham. Susan Graham, in my opinion, is one of the great young singers. She was a great younger singer in that day; now she is approaching maturity. (laughter) Susie is an incredibly magnificent artist, but she’s an incredibly sound human being. She comes from good stock, as they say. You know, the French have an expression, elle est bien dans sa peau, she’s good in her skin. And being around her, and watching her progression in the role, was very, very interesting to me, and really kind of a wonderful journey.
But I thought it was going to be an enormous success, a controversial success, maybe, but a success, because of the truth of it. You know, it’s a true story, and it’s a story that you don’t usually confront in the opera, or you don’t think you do, but where do you go for murder and intrigue and, you know, off with their head, and sorrow, and grief, and jumping off turrets, but the opera house? And at first I thought, well, starting with a murder and ending with an execution isn’t a great recipe for a great evening in the opera, (laughter) but that’s not the only mission of opera.
The opera is to tell a story, and this is a story, and it’s a love story. It’s a human love story between Sister Helen and Joe, and Mrs. De Rocher and Sister Helen, and the children and the parents, and it’s... It’s an exploration that has a very wide ring around it. Like throwing a rock in the lake and it goes plop, and it makes a very satisfying plop, and then all the rings go out, and that every time I’ve done this piece has been my experience of doing it. It’s the ring that encompasses a lot of people. And that’s not just because I adore Jake, (laughter) but I do adore Jake. I’m guilty of that in every way.
And I believe in his truth, I believe in his music, and I believe he’s a beautifully educated human being who uses his education and his heart to dictate what he writes and what he believes in, and he believes in this. His other marvelous operas, Intelligence, and... There’s a lot more than just musical excellence in it.
JM: Going back to the opening night, and whether you thought it would be a success. You were talking about the rings. I’m wondering: did you ever think 25 years later (laughter) this piece would still be in the repertoire, being performed all over the world?
FVS: Indeed, I did. That, to me, was evident in the first year, and every year since. Indeed, I did, you know, and I think it’s also an opera that can be produced with not so much cash. You know, I mean, I love doing the opera Cendrillon by Massenet, but ca-ching, ca-ching, and ca-ching. (laughter) If you just have a simple stage -- and it’s been done very simply. I’ve seen it done in universities. Opera Parallèle’s production was very, very simple. It’s an important piece for schools to do. It’s an important piece to do... You know, I wish there’d be a performance of it at San Quentin, you know? I really do. It has that kind of a significance. It has a significance beyond its artistic one. It has a social significance, in my opinion.
JM: You mentioned the Opera Parallèle production. We did talk to Cathy Cook about her role in the premiere, and her ongoing connection with the piece, and she spoke very movingly about how you inspired her.
FVS: Oh!
JM: And –
FVS: She’s a doll. (laughs)
JM: In thinking about Cathy, and Susan Graham -- and now Susan Graham is now going to sing your role this year -- can you talk a little bit about, as Dead Man Walking has become part of the repertoire, the succession of characters in these roles? It’s like a new Cherubino on the scene, or a new... (laughs)
FVS: Well, I’m thrilled, because, first of all, like Cherubino, it’s beautifully written, and it’s, you know... For me, The Marriage of Figaro is one of the truest portrayals of humanity in the opera world that I’ve ever been a part of. The Count is... I know a million people who are like the Count. I know a million people who are like Susanna. I know a million people like the Countesses. You know, it’s a very honest, true representation of human nature, and Cherubino I know really well, with all my young cousins, and all the boys I work with now, and young musicians, choral orchestra. I see their energy. I see it all. So when there’s something that is that true, it goes on, and there’ll be a different voice doing it, and a different personality doing it, but it’s so contained, and so exquisitely constructed, that it can only blossom with each portrayal. And I think the same of Sister Helen, I really do, and Joe. I feel the same way. I think they are so honestly written, and self-contained, to a certain extent, that they will seduce any other personality, (laughter) you know? I don’t know if I could see Plácido [Domingo] singing Joe, but, you know... (laughter) That might be a bit of a stretch, but I think he would fall in love with it and be amazing.
JM: Yeah, yeah.
FVS: And what happens is the pieces that you really love, you fall in love with them, and I’ve been in love with Mrs. De Rocher since the first day I heard her.
JM: Wow, that’s lovely. Thank you. Conscious of your time, don’t want to hold you here too late, but before we let you go, I wonder: Jake, do you have any questions for Flicka about the premiere? (laughter)
FVS: Why did you not sing that note as I wrote it!?
JH: No, you know, the thing that was incredibly helpful was, first of all, that Flicka opened the doorway in this world of possibility for me, in not just being sort of on the sidelines of music, you know, in the PR/Marketing department, but suddenly being in the middle of it, doing recitals with her, writing music for her. And then when this opportunity to write an opera happened, it was just being able to write it for her, because she gave me such clarity as, you know, an artist, as a friend, as a person, so to be able to write it for her, it just... It gave me such clarity, and that’s what you need when you’re creating these pieces is you need tremendous clarity, and knowing who you’re writing for is part of that. But, I mean, I even remember when I said, “Okay, I’m doing this opera. Lotfi [Mansouri, general director, 1988-2001] asked me to write an opera. We’re going to do this opera.” I remember before it was Dead Man I said, “I don’t know what it is, but you’re going to be in it.” And you went, “Okay.” (laughter) And then when it was Dead Man Walking, you were kind of breathless, and I said, “And we’d love for you to be Sister Helen,” and you went, “No, no, no, no. Leave that to one of the young stars.”
FVS: Yeah.
JH: And I said, “Would you like to be one of the mothers?” And you thought, and I remember very distinctly when you said, “I want to be his mother.” And it just spoke volumes about your commitment to the piece, to exploring it, and it just opened up all kind of doorways for me. And then we really worked very closely together in the creation of it.
FVS: Yeah.
JH: I was constantly bringing music over to you to show you –
FVS: Right.
JH: -- what we were doing. Yeah.
FVS: Yeah, and that’s one of the magic things about Jake, is you usually do write for a specific voice, and he knows those voices. I mean, we all adore... I mean, we’ve all sung lots of his music, so he knows what we can do, and what we can’t do, and that’s... (laughter)
JH: Like you don’t do five.
FVS: I don’t five. (laughter) I will not do five- or seven-eight.
JH: Yes, that was very clear early on.
FVS: I just can’t count it. One two three, one two, (laughter) one two, one two three, one two... Well, where’s that beat?
JH: But this was a great... I mean, I learned. I’d never written an opera before; this was the first one. And so having written so much for Flicka, and knowing her so well -- because it wasn’t just a voice; it was her whole persona and presence, and being able to visualize that. And Terrence, who is such a fan of yours, so being able to visualize it, it made all those scenes come alive in a different way. And you kept encouraging me to go further. “Go ahead and push the voice a little more.”
FVS: Right.
JH: Because I was always worried about pushing it too far. You’re like, “No, push it. It’s okay. You know, we want a challenge, and we want to rise to the occasion.” Do you regret that? (laughter)
FVS: No, not for a minute. Not for a minute. You know, I... (singing) “I had a mother...” (speaking) It’s all in my head all the time, whereas (singing) “Voi che sapete” -- (laughter) I forget the words. (laughter)
JH: But it was a very special time, working up to opening night. Rehearsals were so special and amazing, and we just knew we had something very, very powerful. I personally had no idea... I knew it was good. I knew it was going to be effective. I had no idea how the audience was going to respond.
FVS: Right.
JH: No idea. And I remember very specifically: you sat and watched some of it in the House, a rehearsal with me –
Yeah. But I remember, I mean, the strength of being able to know that you were there from the beginning, and every step was... It helped me to write the way I wanted to write it, you know? Because I knew I had your support and belief, and I could check things with you. (laughter)
FVS: Yeah, you always will, Jakey. You always will.
JH: And there is a lot of five in that opera, but not when you’re singing. (laughter)
FVS: Thank you. Thank you. Oh. Well, I better take off, then.
JM: Yes, thank you. We really appreciate you coming in.
FVS: Thank you, darling Jakey.
JH: Thanks, Flickie.
FVS: Thank you so much.
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To see Ms. Von Stade’s full performance history at San Francisco Opera: https://archive.sfopera.com/frederica-von-stade
To see Mr. Heggie’s full performance history at San Francisco Opera: https://archive.sfopera.com/jake-heggie