Catherine Cook
Catherine Cook
SESSION #5: Dead Man Walking
FEATURING: Catherine Cook, role Jade Boucher, mother of the murdered boy (2000)
Interview conducted by: Dr. Clifford (Kip) Cranna, Dramaturg Emeritus, on 06/25/2025
(transcript read time ~ 13 minutes)
CATHERINE COOK [CC]: All right. My name is Catherine Cook, and my role with San Francisco Opera over the last 30-plus years has been principal artist. And I was in the world premiere of Dead Man Walking, as Jade Boucher, who was the mother of the murdered boy. And... Yeah, that’s it. And I also participated in the workshop of Dead Man Walking.
KIP CRANNA [KC]: And I’m Kip Cranna. I’m called Dramaturg Emeritus at San Francisco Opera now. And it’s very nice to be able to talk with you, Cathy. Just to set the scene for us, I know that you have not too long ago surpassed the mark of 300 performances at San Francisco Opera.
Can you tell us a little bit how you got started with the Company?
CC: I was in Merola in 1990.
KC: That’s the Merola Opera Training Program.
CC: Yes, the Merola Opera Training Program. And then I did one year of Merola, and then I was asked to stay on for the Adler Fellowship. So I was an Adler Fellow ’91 and ’92. And then I just kind of hung out (laughter) and stayed.
KC: Never left.
CC: Yeah, they couldn’t get rid of me. So, yeah, I debuted in ’91, in War and Peace, and then the next season I did the Boris Godunov. And then we decided to move our family here, because I was living in Chicago at the time, and when my son was one we made the decision to pack the U-Haul and move to San Francisco, because most of my work was here, and we loved it here, and we’ve never looked back.
KC: And you’ve had quite a long relationship with this Company, and, of course, you’ve sung in a lot of other places, as well.
CC: Definitely, yeah.
KC: So by the time we got to Dead Man Walking, which premiered in 2000, you were already quite a veteran of our stage.
What was it like for you when you were asked to take on this role? This would have been your first world premiere, is that right?
CC: Yeah, my first world premiere, and I was friends with Jake, as most of us singers were, but we had a wonderful friend group of Nicolle Foland and I, and Jake, and his husband, Curt; Kristin Clayton; Bojan Kneževic. You know, we had this wonderful friend group, and he approached me and said, you know, “I’m writing this opera based on Dead Man Walking, and I know that most of the roles that you do are comic,” because that’s sort of what I’ve specialized in is the character roles, “but I’m writing this part, and I want to write it for you, and it’s a very dramatic role.” He told me a little bit about it, and, of course, I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds absolutely incredible, as did the whole project.
And in anticipation of talking with you about this, I was thinking since then how I’ve done quite a few world premieres, but back then, 25 years ago, this was... I think the word “groundbreaking” is kind of overused right now, (laughs) but it truly was groundbreaking, this moment, because there weren’t many companies, or many operas being written about social justice issues, and just Sister Helen’s story... You know, I’d read the book. Of course, I’d seen the movie. It was just such a fabulous story, and issue. And so I think since then, of course, there’s been so many operas written on issues like that. But up until then, I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think many people were really being that bold to write an opera about capital punishment, and Joe’s story, and Sister Helen’s story. So it was really... It was quite something. (laughs)
KC: Another unusual aspect was the fact that it was portraying a real person, a living person.
CC: Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I love... Marriage of Figaro is probably my favorite opera in the repertoire, but there’s something so special and so personal about playing a character that is still alive, or was alive recently, and you can get really under the hood about the personal stories of all the characters in the opera. And having Sister Helen there was such an amazing experience and gift, because she just... You know, she’s just so down to earth, and (laughs) really funny, actually. And that was just such an incredible experience, to have her around during the process, and all the talks that she gave, and she just was just so incredible to work with, so...
KC: Did she come to rehearsals, give you any advice?
CC: She came to some of the rehearsals, yeah, and she was just kind of around. And then when I did the production at Opera Parallèle, she was there, as well. And I think she tries to travel to as many productions as she can, even now, I think.
KC: Yes, I think it’s become a second career for her.
CC: Yes, because she does events, and community outreach wherever the production is. So that was a really special aspect of it, yeah.
KC: So when this was getting started, you were already familiar with Jake’s music?
CC: A little bit, yeah, because I think he had already written those songs, a bunch of songs, like, for Renée Fleming, and Flicka [Fredericka Von Stade], and Zheng Cao. And so I already sort of knew his songs, but yeah, the opera was just incredible, and he really knows how to write for the voice.
KC: So when you first saw the score, what was your impression of the music? Did you find it difficult to learn, or fairly straightforward?
CC: A little bit. I think there’s always an unexpected turn here and there, and also rhythmically, and I think... But it’s sort of like you might struggle for a little bit, but then once you know it, it’s like, oh, this can’t be written any other way, you know? And it makes so much sense how he sets text, and how he can sort of build an arc of a scene in the drama. He’s just incredible. He's just incredible, yeah. And, like I said, he knows how to write for the voice. He knows the voice, and not all composers have that gift.
KC: There was a workshop in 1999, in one of our rehearsal studios, and I believe you participated in that, actually, in the role that you were going to be singing, Jade Boucher, is that right?
CC: Yes, yes, which was an amazing experience, because it was kind of a workshop and so certain changes were made, and there was some dialogue that was in there that was changed, or cut. Even during the rehearsal process, there were changes being made, as is a normal thing for world premieres. But it was so nice to just be able to be in the music and the story, and in that setting of, yeah, this is a workshop. So we were all getting to know the piece at the same time, and I think a lot of the people that were in the roles actually did the workshop, so –
KC: Yes, I think John Packard, who was going to be the prisoner, was involved.
CC: Yeah, and Patrick Summers.
KC: Our conductor, yes. And, of course, the librettist, the famous playwright Terrence McNally, was there.
CC: Yeah.
KC: Do you have any recollections of him and his involvement?
CC: Yeah, I mean, he was there, and I definitely was fangirling (laughter) over him, because he was such an icon, with all of his plays that he’s written and everything. So, yeah, he definitely was... You know, everyone was just collaborating together, and that was such an amazing... I’d never been in a process like that before, and we were all able to give feedback in how we felt about things, and it was just a really wonderful energy, and it really helped build the momentum to the actual rehearsal process and the performances of the piece. So it really started then.
KC: Do you remember any specific changes that were made in your role, as a result of the workshop?
CC: For my role, it was mostly the dialogue, because there were some dialogue lines that had been written between the parents with Sister Helen, and so some of those were changed, just to kind of make it work for the drama. And a lot of them were cut. Yeah, because the music really was able to tell the story.
KC: I remember the scenes where the parents confront Sister Helen, and blame her for siding with the prisoner when she should have been comforting them, rather than the prisoner, and –
CC: Yeah.
KC: It’s obviously an emotional moment.
CC: Yeah, and being a parent myself, and... I sort of... I have this sort of duality happening in the opera, because I was singing the role of Jade, who was the mother of the murdered boy, and then I was covering Flicka, who was the mother of Joseph De Rocher, and so I was being, like... (laughs) You know, because one thing that I feel the opera does so well is it really helps us see inside of these characters, of what it would be like if your son was accused of that, and what it would be like if your child was the victim of that. So it was... Some of those rehearsals were real... I get choked up thinking about it right now. (laughs) They were really hard, because we went... In that scene, we go after Sister Helen, because it just feels so wrong that our grief did not feel like it was being honored in that situation.
And so it was really emotional, and, yeah, it was... and my son was born in 1997, so, you know, he was just a couple years old, but just being, I think, a new mother, it felt very raw to me, (laughs) that whole thing, and it still does. So, yeah, and I’ve played the role ... I haven’t been able... I was asked to do Jade a couple times, but actually the role that I’ve sung is the mother, and then I will cover Susan Graham in this production, and now she’s, of course, the mother, and before she was Sister Helen. So we’re all just kind of, like, (laughter) this Dead Man Walking family, yeah.
KC: Yes, it’s affected a lot of artists’ lives over the years.
CC: It sure has. But yeah, that scene, I love the entire opera, but maybe it’s because I’m the closest to that scene, but I think that scene is one of the most important in the opera, because you start with the quartet, and then Sister Helen, and then Mrs. De Rocher, and then it’s this incredible ensemble that Jake just wrote that is just... It’s so powerful. And I think it really highlights the conflict of the piece, and the issue, and everyone’s emotions. So, yeah, it’s... Whew, yeah. (laughs)
KC: Yeah, it’s interesting musical structure, as well. Jake creates this sextet, and it’s been compared to the music of Bach, because it’s very contrapuntal –
CC: It is.
KC: -- with each character coming in one at a time, and they’re singing, “You don’t know what it’s like,” and the parents talking about the last words that they say to their kids were these mundane admonitions.
CC: “Comb your hair,” yeah.
KC: “Shut the door.”
CC: “Shut the door,” yeah. And then we say, “And he’s gone.” And you never dreamt that that would be the last thing that you would say to your child as they left that day. And that is such a human, a raw emotion, that, I mean, as a parent you say, oh, you know... I just dropped my daughter off in the Haight. I said, “I love you,” you know, and that’s what you do. But you would, I think... In that moment, you never dream that that would be the last thing that you would say to them. So it really is... Yeah.
KC: It’s musically intense.
CC: It is musically intense, and it just builds and builds. And then it just goes into, I think, the finale of act one. Yeah, so...
KC: The director of this production, Joe Mantello, was doing his first opera. He had had a career as a Broadway actor and director. What are your recollections of working with Joe?
CC: I really liked working with Joe. I think he definitely didn’t have any opera experience, so I think new directors in opera are always like, “What?” There’s just so many pieces to put together. But I thought he did a wonderful job, and I thought he really... He treated it as a play, which we have to do in opera. And so he worked very specifically on the acting, and I thought he did a wonderful... I really enjoyed working with him. I think it was his last, maybe his first and last. I don’t think he’s done much opera after that, so...
KC: Maybe not. Maybe he’s gone back to Broadway.
CC: Yeah, yeah. But I think he did Wicked soon after that, in San Francisco, that little show. (laughs) Yeah. But no, I love working with theater directors. My background is in theater, so that’s how I started. Most of us opera singers start that way. So that was... I think he was absolutely the right person to bring that premiere to life, yeah.
KC: And, as you mentioned, you have sung the role of the mother of the prisoner in various places. Can you say a little bit about that?
CC: Yeah. I think the Opera Parallèle production, for me, was really special, because it was in San Francisco, and I believe that was ten years ago, so that was the 15th anniversary, and it was with Michael Mayes, who has really been the Joe De Rocher in Europe and all over the place. And there was something so special about what he brought to that role, so I was so happy that I got to do it with him in that show. And I remember my son came to the show, and he said, “Mom, I know what that guy ate for lunch.” You know, he was that compelling. You just... Yeah. So I loved playing his mom. And then I’ve been asked to do it a couple other places, but it didn’t work out with my schedule, so I’m happy to revisit the role again.
KC: So you’ll be ready to step in this fall if needed.
CC: Yeah. And it’s just, you know... It’ll be wonderful just to be around the piece again, and around all my old friends. Yeah. (laughs)
KC: When it was about to open, what was your feeling, like on the opening night? Did you sense it might be a flop, or were you pretty convinced that it was a success?
CC: Oh, no. Oh, no. I... There was so much excitement building around it, and the lead-up to it, it was just... I mean, I knew it was going to be a huge success. In fact, we had to add a performance, because it sold out. (laughs) So hopefully we’ll get to do that this time. But it was so exciting. And, if my memory serves, there were protesters outside of the Opera House.
KC: On both sides of the issue.
CC: On both sides. Yeah, which was... Well, you would know better than I, Kip, but I can’t imagine that that’s happened much before a show. But it really got people talking, and it was really, really a huge moment, and I feel in opera history, really. And I don’t say that lightly, but I feel that things changed after Dead Man Walking, in the repertoire, and people started taking more risks. And David Gockley, of course was doing that in Houston.
KC: Yeah, longtime general director in Houston, and then became general director here.
CC: And then came here, yeah.
KC: So you think it opened up people’s eyes to the possibility of subject matter for opera?
CC: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, and it really... It changed people’s lives. It changed my life. And then my career really opened up, too, to so many contemporary pieces, and so it’s been a huge part of my repertoire. And, in fact, I’ve done a lot of Jake’s. I did the Two Remain; I was in the world premiere of that. And then I’ve done It’s a Wonderful Life, and then, you know, a lot of his songs.
KC: And you were in some other world premieres here, including The Bonesetter’s Daughter, and you sang the title role in Dolores Claiborne --
CC: Yes.
KC: -- by Tobias Picker.
CC: Yes.
KC: So you haven’t shied away from contemporary opera.
CC: No, I love it. I love it, and, again, especially with Dolores, there’s just such a connection with those characters, and they... I don’t know, I just... I feel that the storytelling aspect of it is so exciting to me as an actor, and as a singer. And that’s always been why I got into opera in the first place, obviously is the storytelling through music, and I feel that contemporary opera, especially in this country, it’s in our language, and the stories are really accessible, and I feel like it really gets to the heart of the stories, and people can really relate to them. So, yeah, Dolores Claiborne, was really... That was a dream, yeah. (laughs) A fever dream, (laughter) in some ways.
KC: Did you like the challenge of creating a new role?
CC: Yes. Yes. Yes.
KC: Putting your own stamp on it?
CC: I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I think there’s a lot of pressure because you’re going to be the person that -- Like, there’s certain artists that I’ve listened to my whole life or whatever. When I do a role, “Oh, I hope I can...” And when you’re in a world premiere, and you make the recording or the video, it’s like, you’re that person. And so there’s a huge amount of pressure, but there’s also a huge amount of creativity, and... I don’t know, it’s really an exciting experience, because you don’t have to be like, oh, I hope I’m good enough as so-and-so, Marilyn Horne, or Frederica von Stade. (laughter) And so it’s... But it’s also just... Oh my gosh, it’s so exciting to create something new, with a composer and the librettist, and... Yeah, there’s nothing like it.
KC: And, of course, the performance was preserved in a CD recording, audio recording, but there was also a documentary made called It Happened... What is it?
CC: It Happened One Night?
KC: It Happened One Night.
CC: Yes. Yeah.
KC: And you were featured in that. What was your reaction when you saw the documentary?
CC: Oh, I thought they did such a great job with it. It was wonderful to just see all the elements come together, and all the interviews with Jake, and with Lotfi [Mansouri, general director 1988-2001], and a lot of those people that are no longer with us that were part of the project. So I think --
KC: Including Terrence McNally.
CC: Terrence, and Bob Orth.
KC: Who sang the role of the father of the murdered girl.
CC: Mm-hmm, yes, and Gary Rideout, who played my husband. Yeah, so there were some... Kris Jepson. You know, so there were some really special people.
KC: And the documentary skillfully interweaves interviews with real people whose family members have been killed, or whose family members have been murderers in prison, so it’s an exploration of all sides of things.
CC: And, funny enough, I found out that the person that I was playing did not believe in the death penalty. So I thought that was so fascinating. And I’m not sure if she came to the performance, but somebody relayed that to me, and I thought that was... And that really changed the way I played the character, because I think, obviously you’re grieving, and you have anger about what’s happened, but she didn’t want Joe to die, so...
KC: More death did not seem to be a solution.
CC: No, and so that was really powerful for me as I was creating the character, to know that.
KC: Now, you have had quite a career as a teacher. You teach at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. Have any of your students sung Jake Heggie’s music?
CC: Oh, yes. (laughs) I assign his music all the time. And he just joined our faculty, so I’m super excited about that. So, yeah. Oh, no, I assign his music all the time. Like I said, he knows how to tell the story through the voice, and so it’s required. (laughter) And it’s such a great experience for the students to work on music by living composers. And so that’s been a huge part of my teaching. And they’re great teaching pieces, too, because they’re all fabulous stories, and poems, and a lot of them are like the ones that Flicka wrote the poetry, the stories, and those are fabulous, so I assign those a lot. No, his songs are just incredible. I assign them a lot. (laughs)
KC: Going back to the original start of this project, were you skeptical that a guy who was working in the PR department was writing an opera, or were you already convinced that this was --
CC: Well, no, because I knew Jake, you know, and he was a friend, so no, I wasn’t. I thought it was really amazing, and I thought, wow, this is incredible. And I thought that Lotfi was just such a visionary for... I believe he thought of the idea, right?
KC: Lotfi of the idea, yes, of commissioning Jake. Dead Man Walking was not his original choice. He --
CC: That’s right.
KC: -- wanted a French comedy.
CC: That’s right. (laughs)
KC: But that was what Terrence and Jake came up with was Dead Man Walking, so there we are.
CC: Incredible, yeah.
KC: And it’s been done, now, I think in 13 countries, in something like 90 productions -- on five continents, so...
CC: Yeah, I think it’s the most performed American opera.
KC: Of the century, I would imagine. And you were a part of the creation of it.
CC: Yeah. It’s... You know, as artists we’re always looking forward, and what’s the next thing, and it’s been kind of wonderful to sort of take a step back, and kind of think about the experience of this opera, and the creation of it, and how exciting it was, and it still is. And I’m so happy that it’s been done so much, because it’s just... It’s one of the best, really, that we have, and I’m so glad that the Met [Metropolitan Opera, NYC] finally did it last year, to great success. The fact that it’s still being performed in so many countries, and by so many different artists, sometimes a piece is written and it’s like, oh, well, if that person’s not singing the lead role, the title role, then I don’t think it can be done, you know? It just has been performed by so many different artists, all over the world, and that is a true testament to how amazing this piece is, and how it connects with people.
KC: An example of that issue would be Frederica von Stade, who created the role of the mother of the prisoner, which seemed quite definitive, but many others, including yourself, have done it. So did you find your own way to put your stamp on the part?
CC: Yeah. I... (laughs) I felt really a lot of pressure, (laughs) because she created it, and she was just so definitive in that role, and just heartbreaking. I mean, her first word, you were just in tears, you know? But a wonderful story: when I did it with Opera Parallèle, opening night, Mrs. De Rocher, when she’s giving her first big aria, and she’s at the Parole Board, and she’s literally sitting there at a table like this, with a microphone in front of her, and she basically just pleads with the Parole Board to not kill her son, and so she goes through all these things about Joe, and, like, she pulls a comb out of her hair, and she says, “See this pretty comb? Genuine tortoiseshell, made in Japan.” You know, “A Mother’s Day gift from my Joe.” And so she has all these props.
And so Flicka, in true Flicka fashion, she came to my dressing room before the show, because she also has a purse with all this, so she bought me a purse, and she put all of these props in this purse that Mrs. De Rocher has in the opera. And, of course, I was like... (laughter) I was, like, sobbing. I’m like, oh my God, I’m sobbing before the show even starts. But it was just one of the most thoughtful things that anyone’s ever done, and it was so moving and so beautiful.
I was like, okay, I can do this. (laughter) I don’t have to be Flicka. I can just be myself. So, yeah, but like I said, obviously so many people have played that role, and the piece stands. It’s really incredible, so... But yeah, I felt a lot of pressure (laughter) doing that after her, because she was so iconic. And to see this unbelievably famous and celebrated, one of the best mezzos of our time, really, just get onstage in this kind of dowdy costume, polyester pants and --
KC: Yeah, it’s a Kmart outfit.
CC: -- Kmart outfit, yeah -- and just be, and deliver this part the way she did, was just... It was lifechanging. And I was like, oh, wow, that’s what an artist is.
KC: Sometimes I wonder how artists can manage not to break up when they’re performing. I’m thinking of the farewell aria that Mrs. De Rocher sings.
CC: “Don’t say a word.”
KC: She says, “Don’t say a word, let me look at you.” It’s just sort of the last time she’s going to see him. And you’ve experienced performing that. What was that like?
CC: It’s hard. (laughs) It’s tough. But I always say, if we cry, then the audience doesn’t cry. And what I want is the audience to be moved. And so, yes, in my practice room... I remember when I was first learning this role, and when I was first learning Jade, I would have to stop practicing, because I would just be sobbing at my piano, (laughs) and, okay, that’s it for today; better start again tomorrow. And so you kind of get all of that out in the practice room, and in rehearsals. You know, sometimes we would have to stop because we would all just be a wreck. But in performance, it’s almost like you’re on a teetertotter and you’re just right... You’re almost there, and then you pull back, and then you’re almost there, and then you pull back. And that’s what that moment is, for me. It’s just like... I think it’s so much more moving to keep yourself from crying than actually crying.
And then she has that outburst when they take him away, and then I feel that’s her moment, that she’s just … When she’s like, “Joey! Joe!” And the security guards are pulling her back, because she’s, you know... So after that aria, that’s when she sort of has her outburst, and then she sings that duet with Sister Helen. So yeah, the way it’s crafted, I mean, the way that part is crafted is just... You know, as an actor, you just couldn’t ask for a much more amazing arc. Because it’s written so beautifully. So yeah, that part is really, really special, and I think, like I said, as a mother, she doesn’t want to... She knows that he did it, but she doesn’t want to talk about it, she doesn’t want to believe it, because then it would be true.
So... Oh, I’m getting emotional just talking about it. (laughter) But yeah, you don’t want to believe that your child is that person, you know? And, yeah, so, like I said, the text and the way it’s written, it’s perfection, yeah.
KC: And you’ll be gearing up to be prepared for it all too soon.
CC: Yeah. I know, it’s been interesting revisiting it, because I was like, oh, yeah... And I -- oh. Oh, right, okay. (laughter) I’ve really got to sit down and… and then the lump comes back in the throat. (laughter) So we’ll be working through that.
KC: Catherine Cook, thank you so much for talking with us, I look forward to another production of Dead Man Walking.
CC: Thank you so much, Kip. I appreciate it.
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To see Ms. Cook’s full performance history at San Francisco Opera: https://archive.sfopera.com/catherine-cook